艺术家@张业鸿 与拟像空间主理人@渣克周 关于展览《天空签名》的对谈
渣克周：这个展览的想法最初是怎么产生的？为什么会想到处理一个外国文化语境的东西？
Zachariah Zhou:How did the idea for this exhibition first come about? Why did you come up with the idea of dealing with a foreign cultural context?
张业鸿：以前学当代艺术史的时候曾经听过一则小故事：1947年的某一天，19岁的克莱因与阿尔曼和克洛德·帕斯卡尔躺在尼斯的沙滩上玩瓜分世界的小游戏，阿尔曼选择了陆地，帕斯卡尔包揽了空气，克莱因则希望拥有蓝色的天空，他甚至幻想在天穹的另一边签下自己的名字，成为蓝天的主人。正如他后来所说，“蓝色的天空是我的第一件作品”，他的一生都着迷于这个神秘的颜色，再后来当然就是那个人人皆知的的国际克莱因蓝。
这么说可能有点穿越——我在时间线的另一端找到与之呼应的线索是网络图库的版权水印，密密麻麻的倾斜文字让我想起了这则艺术小故事。为什么不试试把他们关联起来呢？最后我有点阴差阳错地找到了关于天空书写（sky-writing）这个失落的媒介。它刚好是位于两者中间的一个位置，反而在呈现上，开头提到的这两个线索变得更加隐性和含蓄了。但在我看来，天空写作者（sky-writer）本身既是1947年想在天空签上自己名字的克莱因，同时也是把水印打在图片上的摄影师。
Zhang Yehong:When I used to study contemporary art history, I once heard a little story: one day in 1947, 19-year-old Klein was lying on the beach in Nice with Arman and Claude Pascal playing a little game of dividing the world. Arman chose the land, Pascal bagged the air, and Klein wished to have the blue sky, and he even fantasized about signing his name on the other side of the skydome and becoming the master. As he later said, "The blue sky was my first work," and he was fascinated by this mysterious color for the rest of his life, and then, of course, the international Klein Blue that everyone knows.
That may be a bit of a crossover - the clue I found echoed at the other end of the timeline was the copyright watermark on the web gallery, the dense, slanted text reminding me of this little art story. Why not try to correlate them? I ended up finding, somewhat by accident, the lost medium of sky-writing. It happens to be located somewhere in the middle of the two, and instead, the two clues mentioned at the beginning become more implicit and subtle in their presentation. But in my opinion, the sky-writer itself is both Klein, who wanted to sign his name on the sky in 1947, and the photographer who put the watermark on the picture.
艺术家与他的明信片，拟像空间，2021
渣克周：所以你的展览标题sky-writing没有直接译作“天空书写”，而用了“天空签名”。
Zachariah Zhou:So the title of your exhibition, sky-writing, does not directly translate as "sky-writing," but rather "sky-signing."
张业鸿：对。一方面对应了克莱因的“签名”，另一方面“书写”的说法听上去过于中性了。不是经常有游客在景区的墙上写下自己的名字（xxx❤️xxx），我想表达的“签名”更倾向于那一种意象：看似浪漫，实则充满暴力和伤害性的。
Zhang Yehong:Yes. On the one hand, it corresponds to Klein's "signature," but on the other hand, the word "writing" sounds too neutral. Not often do tourists write their names (xxx❤xxx) on the walls of scenic spots, but the "signature" I want to express is more inclined to that kind of imagery: seemingly romantic, but violent and hurtful.
渣克周：听上去是个挺飞的脑暴过程，你最后是怎么整合这些素材的？
Zachariah Zhou:It sounded like a pretty fly-by-night brainstorming process. How did you finally integrate the material?
张业鸿：可能是我的直觉，在搜集资料时我找到了一些跟我的概念相当吻合的叙事。比如，这门技术的前身正是一战的烟幕，战后被应用于商业手段；在商业中，它又引发了另一场“战争”——各大广告商对空中领域争夺；德国人用它来躲避凡尔赛条约，披着商业广告的外衣秘密训练空军力量；用于喷射烟雾表演的飞机，在战争时是无情的杀戮机器，写下示爱和祝福语句的飞行员，或许曾是下令轰炸城市的军官...这些矛盾的内核都是我感兴趣的地方，在美的背后究竟隐藏了怎样的裂痕呢？准确来说我不是去整合它们，而是慢慢被它们打开了。
Zhang Yehong:It was probably my intuition, and in gathering information, I found some narratives that fit my concept quite well. For example, the technology was formerly used as a smokescreen in World War I. After the war, it was used for commercial purposes; in business, it triggered another "war" - major advertisers competed for the airfield; the Germans used it to evade the Treaty of Versailles and to secretly train their air force under the guise of commercial advertising; it was used to train the air force in secret under the guise of commercial advertising; and it was used for the air force. The planes used for smoke shows were ruthless killing machines during the war, and the pilots who wrote messages of love and blessings may have been the officers who ordered the bombing of cities... These contradictory kernels are what interest me. What kind of cracks are hidden behind the beauty? To be precise, I did not go to integrate them but was slowly opened by them.
渣克周：但它们最后是落位到图像上的，你串联起了很多不同的关于sky-writing的图像，整个展览看上去更像是一个图像研究。
Zachariah Zhou:But they finally fall into place in the images. You have strung together many different images about sky-writing, and the whole exhibition looks more like an image study.
张业鸿：确实可以这样认为，但其实我不太喜欢那种严谨的科研工作来着。图像之间那个点和其跨越性的能量更加吸引我，换言之，就是某种跳跃的阅读感。我记得第一次看波拉尼奥的《遥远的星辰》时，就被主角这位集杀手、诗人、空军军官和天空写作者一体的气质吸引，不过当时我以为这种写作技术只是波拉尼奥自己的臆想而已，没想到真的存在。而在我研究天空写作的历史时，这几个东西被完全接通了。浪漫、诗意、暴力、杀戮并不是完全对立，有时甚至可能就是一体两面。
Zhang Yehong:It's true, but I don't really like that kind of rigorous scientific work. The dots between images and their transgressive energy are more appealing to me, in other words, a certain sense of jumping around. I remember the first time I read Bolaño's "Distant Stars," I was attracted to the main character, a killer, a poet, an air force officer, and a skywriter, but at the time, I thought this writing technique was just a figment of Bolaño's imagination, but I never thought it really existed. And as I researched the history of skywriting, these few things were fully wired. Romance, poetry, violence, and killing are not entirely opposed to each other, and sometimes they may even be two sides of the same coin.
渣克周：这个展览跟你前几个展览的面貌相差挺多的，它们之间有一个共通的点或者线索吗？
Zachariah Zhou:This exhibition is quite different from your previous ones. Is there a common point or thread between them?
ME,MEME,无际空间，深圳
张业鸿：明明都很网红啊！（划掉）关联的点我一直都挺明确的，就是对于我们的审美经验中的一些自动化的东西，我们对表象的认识有时会依赖意识形态制造的某种想象。我想把这些用一个戏仿的形式抛出来，通过拆解、重新编排这些元素，产生一种感性的异轨。
就今年的作品来说，在《me，memes》里我关注那些看似无害搞笑的文化模因里面被意识形态利用的部分，在《第二自然》里则是自然主义在后现代被风景化、符号化、政治化之后的情境状况，再往前一点的《日落笔记》和《飞向太空的人》也是，我似乎总是喜欢寻找这类日常景观的之下的感知断层。他们之间的线索不一定非常明显，有时带有分岔和返回的，甚至一个作品会以另外的形式加入到下一个展览里，这也是我自己想抵达的一种复杂性，像卡尔维诺那副无法穷尽的命运交叉塔罗。
Zhang Yehong:Obviously, they are both very instagramable! (Crossed out) The point of connection has always been quite clear to me; for some automatic things in our aesthetic experience, our perception of appearances sometimes relies on some imagination created by ideology. I want to throw these out in a parodic form by dismantling and rearranging these elements to produce a kind of sensual heterogeneous track.
In terms of this year's works, in "me, memes," I focus on those parts of the seemingly harmless and funny cultural modalities that are ideologically exploited. In "Second Nature" it is the situational condition of naturalism after it has been landscaped, symbolized, and politicized in the postmodern era, and a little further back in "Sunset Notes" and "The Man Who Flew to Space" as well, I always seem to like to look for these kinds of everyday landscapes under of perceptual fault lines. The threads between them are not always very obvious, sometimes with bifurcations and returns, and even one work will join the next exhibition in another form, which is a complexity I want to arrive at, like Calvino's inexhaustible tarot of crossed destinies.
小红书观众打卡截屏
渣克周：齐泽克在《变态者意识形态指南》也说到过，走出意识形态是一种痛苦的经验，有时人们其实非常清楚他正自发地生活在谎言之中，“眼镜”将会使他看到真相，但这个真相可能是痛苦的，它可以粉碎你的许多幻想。
Zachariah Zhou:Zizek also said in "The Pervert's Guide to Ideology" that coming out of ideology is a painful experience. Sometimes people are very aware that they are living a lie spontaneously, and "glasses" will make them see the truth, but this truth may be painful, and it can shatter many of your illusions.
第二自然，SHU空间，深圳，2021
张业鸿：所以不管一个作品表达得多直白，批判总是不会自动会生效的，人有时无法面对那个赤裸裸的真相。这个过程中，更需要观者自发地强迫自己出走。
Zhang Yehong:So no matter how straightforward your work is, the criticism will not automatically be practical, and people sometimes cannot face the naked truth. This process requires the viewer to force himself out spontaneously.
渣克周：你不害怕你作品外观的“好看”某种意义上也在创造一种表层？
Zachariah Zhou:Aren't you afraid that the "good looks" of your works are, in a sense creating a kind of surface?
张业鸿：不能说不害怕，至少是有风险的。但是对我来说，越是光滑的东西分裂瓦解时所产生的张力才会越巨大。
Zhang Yehong:I can't say I'm not afraid; at least it's risky. But for me, the smoother something is, the more tension it creates when it disintegrates.
渣克周：回到小红书的话题，今天的艺术似乎更像一张图像，你能看到大众媒体化的社会里，一切都是为了围绕着图像生产进行。
Zachariah Zhou:Going back to the topic of Little Red Book, today's art seems to be more like an image, and you can see that in a mass media-oriented society, everything is designed to revolve around the production of images.
世界尽头协会，样当代艺术空间，厦门，2018
张业鸿：我以前喜欢写小说，小说是词和词的关联。做展览和写小说是一样的，串联起一个作品和另一个作品的关系——这么说我好像还是个策展人。职业病，职业病。噢我还比较讨厌群展，有点无聊，那只能把自己做成群展了。
关于媒介的话，因为我是读油画系的，大学自修过摄影，毕业后做新媒体，业余写作，所以混搭不是刻意呈现的效果，而完全就是我本人的延伸。目前有几个东西基本是固定的，比如绘画跟摄影——展览的图像基础；比如视频论文——为零散的作品提供一个相对紧凑的叙事，但这种阐释通常是后置的。总而言之我希望展览线索是开放的，观众可以根据我给出的素材自行导演那出属于自己的“电影”。
Zhang Yehong:I used to like to write novels, and novels associate words with words. Making an exhibition is the same as writing a novel, linking one work to another - so it seems I'm still a curator: occupational symptoms, occupational disease. Oh, I'm not too fond of group exhibitions, it is a bit boring, so I have to make myself a group exhibition.
Regarding the medium, since I studied oil painting, studied photography in college, did new media after graduation, and wrote in my spare time, the mix is not a deliberate effect but a complete extension of myself. Several things are basically fixed at the moment, such as painting and photography - the pictorial basis of the exhibition, such as video essay - to provide a relatively compact narrative for the fragmented works, but this interpretation is usually postulated. All in all, I want the exhibition to be open-ended so that the audience can direct their own "films" based on the material I give them.
